Inclusive Capitalism AND Business with Dr. Mo Ibrahim

According to top business leader and philanthropist Dr. Mo Ibrahim, “You have to be profitable in your business, but you also have to try to do good as well.” Dr. Ibrahim implemented this belief by making all his employees business partners or shareholders within the companies he ran. As he would say, “Either we succeed together or we fail together!” Ilham sits down with Dr. Ibrahim for a fascinating discussion about what it means to be sustainable AND profitable in business, the importance of inclusive capitalism, the fight against climate change and the role Africa plays, the important work of the Mo Ibrahim Foundation and so much more. 

Timestamps
1:37 - Upbringing and the making of a leader
3:59 - An accidental businessman
6:08 - The important work of the Mo Ibrahim Foundation
10:47 - Africa and the fight against climate change
13:31 - Sustainability AND profitability
19:21 - The importance of inclusive capitalism
29:05 - Leadership advice
30:35 - Recharging the batteries

Dr. Mo Ibrahim is a great businessman, philanthropist, and climate justice advocate. He is the founder and chair of the Mo Ibrahim Foundation, which improves lives by advocating for good governance and exceptional leadership in Africa. He founded two major companies, Mobile Systems International, a world leading cellular consulting and software provider, and CellTel International, one of Africa's leading mobile telephone companies. As a business leader, who does so much good in the world, he is a perfect example of the power of AND.

For additional details about the podcast, show notes, and access to resources mentioned during the show, please visit https://www.syensqo.com/en/podcast

Transcript

Ilham Kadri: 0:35

Today, I'm thrilled to welcome Dr. Mo Ibrahim, who is truly a great businessman, philanthropist, and climate justice advocate to the podcast. He is the founder and chair of the Mo Ibrahim Foundation, which improves lives by advocating for good governance and exceptional leadership in Africa. He founded two major companies, Mobile Systems International, a world leading cellular consulting and software provider, and CellTel International, one of Africa's leading mobile telephone companies. As a business leader, who does so much good in the world, he is A perfect example of the power of and. Dr. Ibrahim, thank you so much for joining me today.

Mo Ibrahim: 1:31

Thank you very much for having me and I'm still blushing after hearing your very kind words.

Ilham Kadri: 1:38

You, you, you should not more, uh, welcome. Marhaba. I'm so glad, thrilled, um, excited, because obviously you come from the same continent as I. And, and because you've been a role model for many African, you know, born people. So I'd like to start off, and I always start by asking, where did it all begin for you? I know you were born in Sudan and you grew up in Cairo, uh, by the way, you speak Arabic, which has about it earlier. And I know as a child, you dreamed of becoming a scientist. And Albert Einstein was your role model. We have that in common. I was the same as a child. I dream of becoming a scientist as well. And my role model was Marie Curie. Can you tell us a bit about your upbringing, Mo, on how that shaped the kind of leader you are today?

Mo Ibrahim: 2:28

Well, let me start by saying I'm delighted to be just like you and we both dreamt of being scientists. The only difference is that you succeeded and you became a great scientist, while I failed actually,

Ilham Kadri: 2:44

Oh,

Mo Ibrahim: 2:44

became a miserable businessman. well done. I

Ilham Kadri: 2:49

oh, oh, our audience will love to feel like you, Mo. Yeah.

Mo Ibrahim: 2:55

depends what your values are.

Ilham Kadri: 2:58

Yeah.

Mo Ibrahim: 2:58

I always, uh, sort of hold scientists and thinkers, I mean, in high esteem, really. Uh, they come well above money. That's my value system anyway. Well, I, yes, I'm, I'm, I'm Sudanese. I'm actually a Nubian Sudanese. I come from the steam north of, uh, Sudan. Nubians straddle the border between Egypt and Sudan. We're a very old race. And, uh, I grew up actually in Alexandria. And, uh, where my father was working. And, uh, that's why I love the Mediterranean, actually. It's a beautiful place to grow up. And, uh, we, we, we, Yeah. They grew up in a, like, lower middle class family, I mean, we were not poor, I mean, we never went to bed without dinner, but things were tight, and, uh, but what was very inspiring for me It's really the cohesion of the Nubian community in Alexandria and how people looked after each other and that concept of extended family, of social responsibility to others, I think was very, very impressive to me. And, uh, you know, I always say you cannot succeed if your people around you are failing. You cannot, you know, it's, it's, it's We go together, and we have a very famous African proverb, which says, If you want to travel fast, you travel alone, but if you travel far, you better travel together. And I think it's a very, very wise statement.

Ilham Kadri: 5:00

Yeah. And I often mention it's actually alone. You go faster together. You go further. You're right. And there are many proverbs. I'm sure we're going to talk about them during these, uh, this podcast. You famously call yourself more an accidental businessman and I love the story of how you went from starting your own company from your desk at home. To eventually found in Cell Tell, which provides mobile phone service across Sub-Sahara Africa, uh, when everyone thought it was invisible impossible, it's Africa. Can you tell us about your career trajectory in telecoms? How did it started? Uh, which I believe was influenced by particularly inspiring Taxi Ride.

Mo Ibrahim: 5:43

Yes, many, many years ago, as a young engineer, I was having a period of internship at the ITU in Geneva, the International Telecom Union. And, uh, at that time, the, an interesting movie called Cartoon, uh, was just been released, a beautiful movie about, uh, About Sudan, and uh, General Gordon, and Mehdi, and uh, And I, I was late, I'm trying to go there, you know, before, uh, The film starts, so I took a taxi, I don't usually take a taxi at that time, because I didn't have much money, And it was a plush, nice, Remember, uh, Renault car, you know, this is a big one, and, uh, But then the driver was talking over the radio, the dispatch radio, and, uh, I haven't seen that before, and, uh, That's something that was not common, I'm talking about 1970, uh, So I asked the driver, I said, have, have you ever been able to establish communication? I said, really, I don't know. I mean, they just gave me this stuff. I press the button here and I speak. And, uh, because at that time, I mean, we, we, as an, I was a telecom engineer and, uh, always over radio, you need to establish a line of sight, uh, to, to have reliable communication. How could you do that? Anyway, uh, when I went back then, I had a discussion with the people there and I was amazed when people told me there is no Design rules here, uh, nobody knows how the wave propagates, uh, through the canyons of the streets, and there's no line of sight. And, uh, so it is something like, you know, you put a system and you hope it works. Uh, and that captured my imagination, really. So I ended up, in a way, specializing in mobile communications and then developing, uh, The Propagation Models, which became almost standard after that. Uh, like, um, I ended up being an academic, and, uh, I was a Senior Research Fellow at the University of Birmingham in the UK. And as I said, I was specialized in the mobile communication, radio wise, and how to really, uh, model, uh, uh, the system. Uh, then in 83, BT, British Telecom was given license to Developed the first mobile UK, cellular network. And then they asked me to join them as a technical director there. And that was fun for me because as an engineer you have to have Your train set, you know, we are like kids, we like to play with the train sets and to get things. And that, I had a huge train set, I wanted to design the whole of UK. So anyway, we did that and it was wonderful. And we managed to introduce the first hand, uh, what you call the hand portable at the time, being which is fully in your hand now. Because the system was designed about cars, like really. Not about handheld devices. So that was the new things we introduced. And, uh, London became famous for that at the time. Uh, after a number of years with Bridge Telecom, Uh, which was a very, very good learning ground for me. Uh, basically I learned how not to do business. And, uh, that is, that's very important lesson. It's not always how to do. It's also important to learn what not to do. And, uh, anyway, that's a long story. But, uh, so I, I just got fed up with, with, uh, what I believe was incompetent, uh, uh, management, which did not understand, uh, this new coming technology, which will end up eating the whole company later on. Anyway, so when, when, when you leave, The managerial post, what might you do? I mean, I decided I would never work for a company again because I, I, it's just, I just, I did not believe those guys know what you're doing. And, uh, but what you do then you say, okay, I'll be a consultant. Okay, there's something I know I'm gonna sell my knowhow. And, uh, but then very quickly, but after three or four weeks, I found that I, I'm completely overloaded. I was designing the networks in Sweden, in Japan, in us. And I just have no more time, and I had contracts for about next three years or so, so I have no time. So I said, no, I'm going to need some people to help.

Ilham Kadri: 10:54

mm

Mo Ibrahim: 11:00

that's how we started the first company, which is called Mobile System International, and very quickly became the largest independent technology house in Europe. We had about 800 engineers, and, uh, we designed probably half the mobile networks in Europe. And we had about 400 engineers in the U. S. Anyway, that was a successful company, design, software, etc. And, uh, uh, but meanwhile, we, we were helping, working also with large telecom companies, etc. And, uh, we got requests from Africa, from, I think from Uganda at that time. who said, look, we have, we need to have mobile communication here, guys, can you help? And, uh, I talked to my friends, because we work with all these telecom companies, and the response was, we cannot, we cannot go there, you know, you're crazy. And, uh, it was clear, really, that, that, if something have to be done, Some Africans have to go and do it. And that's how we started CELTEL, which went on later to build mobile networks in 15 countries or so in Africa. So that's effectively the whole story.

Ilham Kadri: 12:24

I love it. First leadership lessons, learn what, how, what or how not to do in business. And then when it's crazy and impossible, find someone who believes and it happens, you are native. I mean, by the way, to our audience. You are listed in Times Magazine's 100 Most Influential People in the World. And thanks to your significant impact on the telecom industry in the world, and specifically in Africa, on the promotion of good governance as well, and leadership across the continent, and we'll talk about that. We'll come back more to your career again, but now let's talk about your philanthropy and, and, and I, you know, I, my grandma, Moroccan one who, who, with whom I grew up and raised me, she always told me, you know, the day and we came from a poor and humble, you know, background, she always taught me, and maybe it's African, that when you take something and when people give you something or a nation or, or school, you need to think about giving back. And I. I mean, I interviewed many people and many are philanthropy is part of their lives, but yours, I mean, it's extremely central to your life. And after you create all your successful companies, you were inspired to start the Mo Ibrahim Foundation, which focuses on improving the lives of Africans by encouraging good governance and leadership. And being an African, we know Africa is very last emerging continent available to the world, actually, for more technology, for more prosperity, etc. but needs governance, needs leadership. And the foundation awards the Ibrahim Prize, which celebrates excellence in African leadership. And it also produces the Ibrahim Index of African Governance. Can you tell our listener, how did you think about this? And more about the important work of the foundation?

Mo Ibrahim: 14:16

Yeah, you see it happened when we started to work in Africa and to build our mobile networks. From day one, we said we would not pay price. And Everybody says we don't pay bribes, and then they hire consultants to go and pay the bribes on their behalf and say it's nothing to do with me. Uh, so, we had to introduce the, uh, bribe procedure, and that's a long story, but we did not pay bribes. And we discovered actually, You can do business without paying bribes, because if you listen to some Western business people or Chinese business people who say, Oh, no, no, no, we cannot do anything in Africa without This is absolute rubbish. This is nonsense. Because we, we built mobile networks in 15 countries. We were the largest taxpayers in 9 countries. Because we were paying our taxes there. Anyway, uh, so traveling around Africa, dealing with the government, dealing with our employees, with people, customers, et cetera, you start to wonder why African people are poor. You see very lush countries, abundance of resources, and why are we poor? The content is very rich and is very much under populated, actually, very much under populated. And, uh, so we had, uh, when we sold the company, The first decision was, I'm going to give all the money made in Africa back to African people. I have enough because from the first company, we made enough money for me and my children, so that's fine. Now, any money over there, we'll give it back to Africa. The question was how to give back. Those people like Bill Gates doing wonderful things in health and people doing malaria nets and people doing this, which was great, wonderful. But the question was, why do those people need charity? You know, they shouldn't need charity and are they going to be always on people giving us baby's milk and, and, and, and malaria nets and vaccines. And we had a discussion at the time of, I had a very wide consultation with maybe 40 or 50. Uh, different kind of leaders, uh, from Mandela, Kofi Annan at the time was head of UN, a lot of interesting people. We had very intensive discussions, and to get to the conclusion, look, the most effective thing to do now is to help Africa to get out of this rut, and to get out of this rut, we cannot do it without good government. The Africa is backward because of huge mismanagement. Mismanagement of our resources, mismanagement of our people, our human resources, and that has to change. We need better leadership, and that has to change. So we said, look, I mean, that is the area really we need to work on, because if we can do something there, that will help us to move forward. And then we say thank you to Bill Gates. Thank you to everybody else, and we love today to be donors ourselves for other continent or other people. Anyway, so that was our dream, and that's how we started really the foundation.

Ilham Kadri: 18:09

this is amazing because indeed, uh, being African, you said it, we have, uh, all the resources required for the continent. And again, that's why I call it the very last emerging continent, the, uh, the whole world needs. And, and, and, you know, by the way, I was very interested to see that my country of birth and Morocco, right. Moved up to the eight slots in the latest index. Due to good governance, can you tell us what does it take for country to make such big strides like that?

Mo Ibrahim: 18:40

Right, I mean, the index really, when we talk about governance, we don't want To talk poetry, or Government needs to be defined. And he breaks that down to four main pillars. Uh, which, one is rule of law and safety of citizens. This is an important deliverable by the government. Only the government can deliver that. Then there's the economic piece. And then there is a question of rights of citizens, uh, the, uh, the, the, the, the, transparency, etc. And then there is of course human development, health, education, etc. Under this comes so many parameters. We measure over 100 parameters in every country. And, uh, uh, because then we can quantify governance. We can measure. We need, we need a scoring card. And, uh,

Ilham Kadri: 19:43

Mm-Hmm.

Mo Ibrahim: 19:43

so that's how we produce this index. In the case of Morocco, Morocco moved well over the last few years. And, uh, as you said, it moved from 13 to 8 now, which is great.

Ilham Kadri: 19:58

Mm-Hmm.

Mo Ibrahim: 19:59

And more interesting, I mean, in, in, in, out of 16 subcategories, under the four categories, there are 16 subcategories. They improved 13 out of 16 categories over the last year, 10 years, which is impressive. Uh, Morocco now is number one, ranks number one in the development of infrastructure. So, that really is, is, uh, is a great statement. So, well done.

Ilham Kadri: 20:31

yeah, yeah, yeah. And I can, I mean, it's great to have an index, a neutral index, you know, benchmarking is important. I'm a business lady as well, but when I travel indeed, I don't recognize Morocco. I left, I was 17. So a while ago, and frankly, I'm just flabbergasted by the infrastructure from, you know, high speed train to, you know, obviously air traffic to actually even the youth. I'm now scientific advisor of UMCC. which is a university who, which welcomes, by the way, many Africans, right? And, and it's MIT Stanford Together a la African. And I love to see and really address those youths,

Mo Ibrahim: 21:11

I was there, uh, there earlier in the year.

Ilham Kadri: 21:15

Yeah. Yeah, I know more. And, and it's amazing. And they are so inspired by you and many African, you know, leaders who can make it. So now we see these youth who are, you know, they, they, they were not like me because when I left Morocco, I told them I didn't believe I could impact my country and never came back. So, and I ask, uh, you know, when I did the, the, the, uh. the graduation ceremony just two weeks ago, I told them, you know, Africa needs you, Morocco needs you, and you can impact because there is, you open the way to better governance. We're going to switch gears and we just had the COP 29 and I know your foundation has done a lot to bring attention to the effect of climate change, uh, which, which, which is affecting Africa as well. And of course, Uh, the continent has been hit quite hard, and during your speech at the Paris Peace Forum, you talked about Africa's positive contribution to climate action. You say that, and I quote, Africa has the majority of all the natural resources needed for the green economy, and you say that Africa is a crucial part of the solution, and in no way the cause of the problem. And I couldn't agree more, more. And I know that the More Ibrahim Foundation often releases reports on climate change with a specific focus on Africa. Can you tell us more about some of those findings and more about how Africa could play such an important role in the fight against climate change?

Mo Ibrahim: 22:46

Right, to start with, uh, besides, I mean, we focus, of course, on governance and leadership. But it is also important, I mean, our governance does not happen in a vacuum. And it's also affected, well, not affected, but happening around us. We can have good governance in Africa when our friends there are not really doing well or behaving properly.

Ilham Kadri: 23:16

Absolutely.

Mo Ibrahim: 23:17

We cannot fight corruption. If Europe does not fight corruption too, because African leaders don't corrupt themselves. Their partners are business people and analysis guys. So we need good governance in business, we need good governance from our partners. And then we found that one important thing we need to do is for us also to act as a think tank. So we produce regular reports. And so, like, for example, we We talk about the financial issues and, uh, uh, African needs for financing, for development. Our relationship with the multilateral, et cetera, with multilaterals. And by the way, we're having our next conference in Morocco, actually, because every year we have a big conference in Africa, about three days, and it's always focused on one subject. And this subject will be now the financing Africa because money is an issue, a big issue for Africa. Uh, we will have an extensive discussion there and we hope to see you there. It will be in Marrakech actually. And so we do these regular reports about agriculture, about food, civil service in Africa, etc. But also about climate. And we produced it before COP. And

Ilham Kadri: 24:51

Silence. Silence.

Mo Ibrahim: 25:01

the case for Africa in the climate debate. We were very worried in the past years that Africa was completely by, but Africa had no voice. about climate and that was really disturbing. And, uh, uh, so we started about four years ago, then paying attention to this area and culminated in, uh, helping President, President Rucho in Kenya. to have this, uh, conference just before COP28 in Dubai, uh, to produce We wanted African leaders, when they go to COP, they all read from the same script. Unless we have one voice, what we're doing is reproducing noise. Fifty four different voices equals noise. Any engineer will tell you that.

Ilham Kadri: 25:58

Yeah.

Mo Ibrahim: 25:59

Okay, so we need coherence. And so we need to agree what is the issues for Africa. And we have a number of issues concerning climate justice, concerning how we're going to move into this green age, what we're going to do with our resources, et cetera. And, uh As you said, we, we really have great assets. I mean, we have probably 35 percent or 40 percent of all the minerals needed for the green transition, and probably we're squandering most of this. This is a huge asset. If we really use that, that's a huge leverage. And unfortunately, Because, unfortunately, many of these assets happen to be in countries which has problems with governance. Uh, so that was, uh, on the other hand, Africa also is a great thing. We, we have one of the largest sinks in the Congo Basin actually, which sinks probably 3 percent of the annual emission, which is almost as much as what Africa emits. So Africa actually is, is net zero already. Okay, and we think it's important. Now Africa is growing very fast in terms of population and as Africa develop, if Africa don't develop in a green path, there will be a huge impact on emissions. That's why it's important for us to really develop in the right way. And, uh, so there's a big argument here, uh, why we need, uh, uh, really. a good path forward, which help solve problems and not, not create problems. And as I said, we are really, we did not put this stuff up there. Some other people did. At the moment, we're already at net zero and we need to continue to be at net zero. And we have been asking always for a global carbon tax, because without global carbon tax. I don't think you're going to solve this problem. People keep inventing, uh, this, uh, trading scheme, et cetera, because they're avoiding the real issue, which is, if you use it, you pay for it. And that's what will stop people. The people who invent it, And convince us, everybody, that that is a way for the market. Let the market dictate the road forward. Are unable, are unwilling, actually, to use the market forces to stop the catastrophe we are heading for. And this is so short sighted and so hypocritical. Uh, from our friends, uh, because they are still debating the metals and they don't want to pay the cost of their emission. That's the problem.

Ilham Kadri: 29:15

yeah. Well, thank you more. And amazing lessons. You talked about the, um, the, the, the products coming from the foundation. uh, flagship papers on, on good governance. And, but, but you said many things. You said you acted the think tank, but I think, uh, from what we we've seen from you and we hear from you now loud and clear is that you are a do tank. You are not just a think. And, and, and, and frankly, I love that. There are many people who are thinkers and, and, and, you know, we love them, but I love as well people who are doing, and, and that's what you inspire people like me. And I loved what you said about, I've never seen it this way, you know, Africa is 54 nations and, and you say we need unity if not is a noise, although it's not uniform because all Africa is very expensive as continent is large and, uh, you know, but if there is one voice, this is harmony. And, and the last point is about net zero, which is important. important, obviously, to all of us. Um, like you, actually, we implemented a carbon, global carbon tax inside my company since 2019. Two times, uh, the, the carbon price in Europe, and people say she's crazy. She's not gonna be profitable. And actually, we're almost double our returns since 2019. So we can be, you know, we can tax ourselves, we can reinvest them. But what I love, what you said is that Africa has a unique chance to to not be lagging the other continents and the other, uh, probably more, uh, mature economies who are now trying to go after a Paris Accord or one and a half curve. But here you say, we are net zero. Let's grow differently. Let's have green paths, industrialization way, which is very different from other continents. And this is really, you know, a call for hope for Africa, actually, to do it, to do it differently and better for generations to come.

Mo Ibrahim: 31:16

Yep, that's what we hope. Yeah.

Ilham Kadri: 31:19

So, as you know, uh, more, this podcast is about, um, how we can do things at the same time in harmony, um, and things which can appear in opposition. So, um, we started with, with how we can ensure our companies are both sustainable and profitable. And you are the perfect Uh, example leader to talk about this, uh, because you are a successful business leader and someone who has done incredible good in the world, uh, I know you would see the two going hand in hand, and that's why I'm so thrilled and honored to have you today. And I, I've heard you say. That business is essentially a force for good, and you and I are both on the B team, which is a group of business leaders who want to create better companies that work for the well being of the people in a planet full of resources. So what do you think business leaders should focus on more to achieve both sustainability and profitability? And what do you think is the most important thing that businesses should do right now to fight climate change?

Mo Ibrahim: 32:24

Yeah, I think business really should act responsibly and Their eye should be on the prize and the long term and sustainability. And as I said earlier on, you cannot succeed if, if things around you are failing. I mean, you have no future, uh, uh, uh, for your business. And we need to understand also what's at the summit of this new world, new regime, which will be carbon free, hopefully, uh, going forward. It creates opportunity also for us, and we need to understand that, uh, business as usual is not, is not really, uh, sustainable anymore. And many business leaders are coming now to, to understand this. And, uh, of course, there will always be a pushback. There will always be these campaigns of hatred and misinformation, and unfortunately, uh, this is one, one, one problem area we have, uh, misinformation and, and, and, and, uh, uh. Uh, this, uh, sometimes backlash against, uh, uh, people who try to, to do good. But I think people should not be deterred by that. Because, ultimately, ultimately, uh, truth will always conquer the falsehood. Ultimately, we will be able to convey our messages. And people will run around what we're trying to say. Sorry, that's a sidetrack, maybe. Because I really hear the stuff which is going on X and different platforms. It's really unfair what is being done. But all that I'm saying here is that it doesn't mean, I mean, to fight for Uh, uh, a better future to try to save this planet where we are heading for disaster. We maybe didn't appreciate that. We are heading for disaster. I mean, look at this bargaining cost of insurance, for example. It's taking place right now. Because of all this, uh, uh, weather. Catastrophes taking place around us. What's happening in Spain, what's happening actually in the United States. And how actually many houses now became uninsurable.

Ilham Kadri: 34:57

mm hmm.

Mo Ibrahim: 34:58

It is, there's a huge cost. And you see, and that unfortunately, what we are unable yet to articulate. The cost of doing nothing is huge. And this bill will go up all the time. And that is higher than the cost of doing things. So, we need to put this message forward. And as business, we are part of this. In order to achieve sustainability, we need to move with the time. In your business, you prove that you can do good, but still time to be profitable. To be profitable is an entrancing part of doing business. You are not a business if you are not profitable. You are not sustainable. So, you have to be profitable. And then, you also have to try to be good as well. I give you a simple example about the good and the bad. In my discussion with a lot of business people when I was working in Africa, was that, look, a little bribe can help me, you know, we demonstrated to people actually, that actually, bribes can end up breaking your business. You think, and I, I, you know, I used to say to my friends in our arguments there, you know, what happened, if I give a bribe to the regulator to, in order to give me some advantage here or there, next morning, the Minister of Telecom will come. Then the president will come ask for something, and then the wife of the Brazil will come. Then the mistress of Brazil will come. Then, you know, and

Ilham Kadri: 36:54

Yeah, never ending. Yeah,

Mo Ibrahim: 36:58

government. And want to start paying bribes, you cannot stop. Because the new guys coming to say, Okay, what's wrong with me? You gave to the old guys, what about me? We say, look, you will continue to bleed. If you do things right, you don't need to do anything. But what we can do, we can do a massive social enterprise in, in, in, in, in our countries. We want to be the most loved company in the country. So what can you do? Each, each CEO in each country will have to report to us monthly about the four, we call them the four stakeholders. What happened to the shareholders? What happened to our employees? The second stakeholders in the company. Then our customers, we consider them as stakeholders in our company. Then our community. What have we done to these four stakeholders? That was a monthly report of every CEO, and to ensure we're doing the right thing for all four stakeholders. And that was 25 years ago, before even people start to talk about popular capitalism, or, or, or inclusive capitalism. That's what we have done in the ground, actually.

Ilham Kadri: 38:26

yeah, I for sharing that. And I think you mentioned, and we'll come to this inclusive capitalism, which is another important topic. What you are saying is really important. This climate change has a huge cost and sometimes, Visible, and yet the worst to come because there are a lot of consequences. And I have the honor to chair the World Business Council for Sustainable Development, it's a global NGO, agnostic to sector, region, technology even. We have 250 members, companies, leading ones, representing not less than 9 trillion dollars. And we are all together on this. thinking about how we can, you know, get more companies coming into the curve of one and a half because only 28 percent of the companies who, who, uh, claim carbon neutrality, uh, and have, they don't have a roadmap yet and they're not executing against it. This, and, and this is where we, the private sector, publicly listed companies, private companies really need really to, to lead the show, to lead the game because, you know, uh, we cannot just rely on governments. And I think that's what you are saying. So you talked about. uh, the inclusive capitalism and the idea of it, uh, which you say, uh, when I, when I listened to you in your interviews and read you more, you said you've learned from your upbringing in Africa, which resonates in me as an African Moroccan lady. Uh, and in Africa, there is an emphasis on caring for your neighbors. I'm not sure if we, we live and we are. wired with more empathy. Um, and I know you've done various initiatives to ensure your employees had a stake in the business and share in, in its success. Can you explain what you did and what does inclusive capitalist means to you?

Mo Ibrahim: 40:22

I really used to think of all our employees as business partners. And I used to say, look, guys, either we succeed together or fail together. So, That's, that's how it happens. And every employee, every employee in any of my companies was a shareholder. We ensure that everybody become a shareholder. And, uh, when we sold the first company, which was MSI, I think we created about 50 millionaires. Uh, when we sold the second company, CELTEN, uh, maybe 150 millionaires. employees became millionaires. And many of those people went on to start their own business. And so the employee's block of shares was one of the largest always in our companies. But that create a different atmosphere in the company. I don't need to check on anybody because Everybody has a stake in the company. People feel ownership and, uh, that change the atmosphere in the company in the way you don't need to ask anybody to stay late. To finish your job or to come early to do it. People, people just do things. You have a problem, Christmas Day, in this country, people will take a flight and just go and sort it out. Yeah, is there an issue here? You know, it, and I think, Uh, I mean, one board member, one of our investors, uh, in our board, uh, made a very wonderful statement, actually. Uh, he said, listen, guys, we're talking about the board, about share allocation for our employees. And I said, you know what? I don't think, as an investor, ever, ever lose money. By giving shares to your employees, you make more money. And that was interesting from a hard lying capitalist to say, Look guys, I make more money, please give this guy shares. And that was, that was very interesting, uh,

Ilham Kadri: 42:47

Yeah, and you,

Mo Ibrahim: 42:50

It's important for people to, uh, really share in the fruit of their work.

Ilham Kadri: 42:56

yeah, and you've been, in a way, more a pioneer on that because I followed your, uh, Your path and you inspired me. Uh, I had to lead this Solve as a company, which I split into back in December. Uh, and it's 160 years old company with the reference shareholder, family shareholder who have been with us for ages for, for, you know, but we, we, we have never given an opportunity. We shareholding or put together a shareholding program. We did this back in 2021 and people thought it's going to be an anecdote. And, and for the story and Solve listeners know it, but also science could the spin off of Solve, um, you know, uh, half of our population are blue colors, we are manufacturing, we create things, we produce things. Uh, and, and, you know, while, you know, we had the largest Participation from the blue colors in our employee shareholding program. You know, it was just amazing. It went really viral in the first year and two, we did more than mature companies and large companies out there and, and having skin in the game, as you see. You don't need to ask. People are engaged. They feel, and I got during my town halls, I think one of the best moments in the life in a town hall was when one of our employee blue collar, um, stood up and say, Miss Kadri, I have a question for you, not as an employee, but as a shareholder. So I said, yeah, you are my boss

Mo Ibrahim: 44:24

Wonderful.

Ilham Kadri: 44:24

and I'm your servant. This is wonderful. And I think you mentioned it. You

Mo Ibrahim: 44:29

need to tell, uh, your, uh, family, uh, shareholders, owners, uh, All the founders of the company that listen, you want to make more money, give more shares to people. I

Ilham Kadri: 44:42

And they did, they did, by the way. I've heard you talk before finishing, you know, about Nelson Mandela, you know, who is one of those rare, precious men in the history of humanity. And you've been talking about him and how he's one of your heroes. How did he inspire you? What are the key takeaways you can share with us?

Mo Ibrahim: 45:09

think the, the humility of the man, he was so humble, so approachable. And I remember the first time we met over dinner with a small group, about four people, etc. It's the first time I meet him. And the host introduced me and said, Mo is doing this and this. And, uh, so I said, Oh, Mr. President, you know, it is an honor to meet you. I was surprised. He stood up and hugged me and said, It is my honor to meet you. And I said, Come on. What are you talking about? But it is this kind of attitude.

Ilham Kadri: 45:46

Yeah. Um. Um.

Mo Ibrahim: 45:54

to other people, etc. Of course, other attributes, people talk about it a lot, about his, you know, forgiveness, and how to try to include people, rainbow, etc. People talk about that, but what strikes me, what really strikes me, as a character, It's, it's, it's the, this essential humility and humanity in the man. Uh, uh, you know, you sit and talk about his childhood, his teachers, and how he was called Nelson because he's, you know, You know, when we went to school, the teacher said, you know, your name, his original name, is unpronounceable. So, you are Nelson. So, we said, yeah, I became Nelson. But, yeah, it was a sense of humor to tell what, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's, uh, it was really, uh, uh, It was really fun to have this sense of humor. And, so, he was Total unaware of your status, total unaware of that, it's not, it's not an act, it's, it's a natural thing to be just a human being and to treat everybody else as a human being. This is wonderful, this is wonderful, especially, yeah, what other people are doing around you.

Ilham Kadri: 47:22

yeah, and you have it more. I mean, that's what we all feel when listening to you and, and, and no,

Mo Ibrahim: 47:30

status, you come over here.

Ilham Kadri: 47:32

you know, but it's true you treat and I'm sure it's just, uh, it resonates with everybody who's listening. So that humility of the man, you have it. So, um, two questions before we close this. passionate, uh, you know, uh, passionate, you know, discussion. What leadership advice would you give to young people, leaders who are listening to us today, who want to make a difference in the world?

Mo Ibrahim: 48:04

that's a difficult question actually. I, I, I usually hate giving advice to people because it's rather paternalistic, you know, as if you have this monopoly over wisdom and you're dishing it out to other people. I think,

Ilham Kadri: 48:20

but imagine you are that African wise man we like to hear from.

Mo Ibrahim: 48:26

No, I, I, I think that the best advice maybe I'll give to, to, to anybody, uh, is just do to others, maybe what you like others do to you. In other way, always put yourself in other person's shoes. And that will change the way you look at things. And it's very important that the way you act today, what you do today, imagine yourself 30 years later on, if you become a successful and greater man. If what you're doing today came out to light, will you be ashamed? Think about that. Avoid skeletons. Skeletons

Ilham Kadri: 49:14

This is a great advice.

Mo Ibrahim: 49:16

will come out.

Ilham Kadri: 49:18

Yeah.

Mo Ibrahim: 49:21

Anyway, I don't know if it's useful or not, but

Ilham Kadri: 49:24

No, this is amazing. It's about, uh,

Mo Ibrahim: 49:27

I'm not going to give advice to anybody.

Ilham Kadri: 49:29

No, no, it's, it's beautiful advice. It's, um, what I call the legacy, right? With how people are going to remember you, what you've done and what you didn't do and what you didn't say. So those are the acts. That's why I like to think about you as, as a do tank, not to think tank at all. So let us finish with, uh, maybe a bit of, um, lighter notes. Uh, we try to, you know, prepare this podcast and try to get to know you outside the foundation, outside business. And it's very difficult actually to trace back, although, uh, our lives in is, is in, uh, is digital these days. What do

Mo Ibrahim: 50:10

Yeah, you just

Ilham Kadri: 50:11

do?

Mo Ibrahim: 50:12

come over for lunch or coffee sometimes. I've never met physically, actually.

Ilham Kadri: 50:19

you enjoy doing more? How do you recharge the batteries, inspire yourself? Outside the foundation and the, and the, and the work and the businesses you, you led so wonderfully.

Mo Ibrahim: 50:31

I think three things I found really, really quite, really relaxing and wonderful. I love. One is to sail in the summer. I have a boat I go out in the summer and I just love to be in the Mediterranean on the water. And the best time I sleep on the water. The best conversations I have with anybody on the water. It's just, it's just, it's amazing. I cannot wait for the summer, uh, to be on the water again. Uh, something about the Mediterranean. I, I, I just love it.

Ilham Kadri: 51:14

Yeah.

Mo Ibrahim: 51:14

think we came from water, you know, if you

Ilham Kadri: 51:17

Yeah. We are water. We are water. Our body.

Mo Ibrahim: 51:20

that. But that is one thing I like. The second thing is I enjoy. Also playing golf. I'm not by any means a good golfer, uh, because I started very late when I had time to play golf, so I'll never be a good player, but I really enjoy being a local because for three, four hours, you cannot think of anything else other than this little ball. You're trying, you know, hopefully to get in that little hole. And, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's, um, but it is green, it is trees, it's dry, it is water. It is, it is really, uh, very relaxing. You know, sometimes maybe you should try to start playing golf. I don't know if you already started or not, but it's never late. And it's, you'll find it extremely relaxing, especially after the stress of your work. All right.

Ilham Kadri: 52:18

Yeah.

Mo Ibrahim: 52:19

there's a couple of things really I, I, I, I enjoy most.

Ilham Kadri: 52:25

And I know that you are inspiring and mentoring many people around you. I thank you so much, Mo, for joining me today. You have touched, uh, so many lives, people's lives, both through your businesses, obviously, and we heard this many has built also prosperity along with your, with you, but equally and I, I should say equally through the amazing work of the foundation and I'm so inspired, uh, I've been always inspired, but so inspired by this conversation. I'm sure our listeners will be too. Thank you again for. for everything you are doing for Africa and for the world and make the world a better place, Mo. Thank you.

Mo Ibrahim: 53:05

Hamm, very much. And you should join me on the board sometime. Bring,

Ilham Kadri: 53:09

I will do.

Mo Ibrahim: 53:10

I'll try it. We'll bring it. They will love it. And you're going to have a

Ilham Kadri: 53:15

do and with pleasure, with pleasure, Mo. Thank you very much.

Mo Ibrahim: 53:20

Bye bye. Thanks.

Ilham Kadri: 53:25

Well, it was, um, uh, long overdue to meet Dr. Moore because he's one of my, you know, African preferred business leaders, uh, and, and just a great human being. Um, he gave us so many lessons, right along the, the, the podcast, uh, is the learning. I think he's, he's a life learner. He talks about how it's important to learn how to learn. to not do business, um, and, and rather than just doing business, uh, and then making choices and, uh, you know, Very quickly, he made the impossible possible. And then, uh, as an African leader, when he, you know, he had the opportunity to give back, he gave back to employees. He is one of those who have put in place employee shareholding programs very quickly. He created the millionaires in his own organization, and equally, he started the foundation. And he wanted to impact, not just do small things, Some more of, of charity work in Africa, like anybody else. He wanted to look at closing the gaps and the gap of governance was loud and clear. And that's what he started doing, uh, impacting, you know, uh, governments, you know, companies, uh, creating an independence index. Right. to, to actually invite companies, you know, to, to compete, benchmark against each others, raise the bar, like my, um, country of birth, Morocco. And obviously he's, uh, uh, one of my colleagues at the B team, and they're really pushing hard onto the social entrepreneurship, our impact on climates. change and a positive impact to fight climate change. Um, and he has been doing a lot and, and, and like he's, uh, he's a mentor and, and role model Nelson Mandela. He's also very humble man. Um, very humble, very reachable and, and give us that again, that's exceptional attributes of leadership. So, so glad to having, you know, welcomed, uh, a brilliant businessman and more importantly, beautiful soul, uh, African soul.